Harford County Education Association President Randy Cerveny said he is pleased that county funding is available for employee bonuses, but said it’s not up to County Executive David Craig to determine how those funds will be used in Harford County Public Schools.
In a surprise announcement last week, Craig proposed a one-time, $1,250 bonus to be paid to all county employees thanks to an unexpected $32 million general fund balance beyond the required reserves for the fiscal year 2011. Of the $32 million, $11.3 million is slated for the employee bonuses, with some remaining funds going toward one-time capital projects, according to a press release issued by Craig.
Included among those eligible to receive bonuses are Harford County Public School system employees and Harford County Public Library personnel, along with personnel of the Harford County Sheriff’s Office, the State’s Attorney’s Office, the Circuit Court and the Judiciary.
While the Harford County Council has not agreed to the necessary legislation to allocate the funding for the bonuses, Cerveny issued a statement that says, in part, “…the County Executive cannot dictate how money placed into the school budget is used.” Referring to the $7.5 million slated for bonuses in Harford County Public Schools, Cerveny said that any use of the funds must be determined through negotiations with the bargaining units representing school system employees. Harford County Public Schools has approximately 5,300 employees, 3,200 of whom are represented by the Harford County Education Association.
Below is the full text of the statement from HCEA President Randy Cerveny:
Despite the County Executive’s statements in the press release, Maryland State law (Section 6-408 of the Education Article) requires the school system to negotiate. HCEA is pleased that there is money available for all school employees – something that HCEA has stated all along, but this is must [sic] be handled through negotiations with HCEA and other bargaining units to determine how this money is used; the school system has acknowledged its statutory obligation to engage in negotiations. In short, the County Executive cannot dictate how money placed into the school budget is used.
From the HCEA web site:
HCEA Harford County Education Association is the professional association and bargaining union for all Harford County Public School teachers, guidance counselors and psychologists, media specialists, occupational therapists, physical therapists, and speech and hearing clinicians. HCEA represents approximately 3,200 employees of Harford County Public Schools in collective bargaining. Approximately 2,070 of those employees are members.
The name Harford County Education Association is rather misleading. What it really should be called is a union as it is representing school employees. It appears to this reader that we didn’t have all the problems in education that we have today until unions were allowed in the system. Do we have better results in education because of unions? I would so the answer is no. Private schools and charter schools serve their students better because they are not bound by union rules that allow incompetent teachers to stay in the classroom. All over the country local and state governments are facing huge pension costs because of the contracts.
In Ohio on November 8, people will vote to sustain or repeal the state law on collective bargaining. The unions have brought in big money from outside the state to try and repeal this law. If the law is repealed, there will be mass layoffs or escalating taxes on the citizens. Teachers or anyone else in the public domain should pay toward their pensions and healthcare. Why should the taxpayers shoulder the burden for something that they don’t have. Our public employees should not be receiving benefits and salaries that are far superior to those who are footing the bill.
CATHY: Do you have any idea of what you are talking about? Rather than repeat the talking points of some right wing political party, get some facts.
First, if private and charter schools serve their students better (which they don’t) it is not because of unions. There are federal and state regulations that dictate services for ALL students that private/religious schools can ignore. Special education for at risk youth is expensive. Private schools can cherry pick their student body and do not have this expense. Private/religious teachers are not required to have a state teaching certificate with the heavy educational burdens that entails (more below.)
Second, teachers at these private/religious schools are not required to earn the credentials that public school educators are required to have as a condition of employment. You were not required to have an earned master’s degree with required credits every five years. They must pay for these credits at $$339 a credit or $1,017 a course (Towson U’s costs).
Third, teachers DO pay toward their pensions. They pay up to 7% of gross salary towards it.
Do you have any idea how much more your house is worth just because of the quality of the PUBLIC schools? People who are moving into a community only have ONE consideration: the PUBLIC schools. It is in your, all residents of Harford County, best interests to support their teachers. Every profession with comparable education receives far better compensation. Moreover, none of those professional could be in their professions without teachers. What most people who argue as you do are guilty of is sour grapes rationalization. If you can’t have it, then no one can have it. This is borne of jealously and envy.
No point in arguing with a liberal. You believe what you want to believe, and so will I.
Cathy I agree. Talking points trump facts every day of the week.
CATHY: No it isn’t if you do not have any facts.
Hey Cathy,
“The name Harford County Education Association is rather misleading. What it really should be called is a union as it is representing school employees.” – How is it misleading when they say they are a union and they even have it on their website that they are a union? Though, one could argue they are less than a union as they really don’t have any power to strike or fight for what they are bargaining for.
“It appears to this reader that we didn’t have all the problems in education that we have today until unions were allowed in the system.” – So, prior to the creation of the first teacher’s union the education system in the US was perfect? There have always been problems in the education system and to blame them on the union or the teachers is ignorant at best and more likely an outright lie. Neither the union nor the teachers have any control over the students and parents outside of school, and it could easily be argued that they have only minimal control of the students in the school because of a number of factors, such as sleep, nutrition, study habits, parents allowing the children to get away with anything, legal ramifications for attempting even minor discipline, requirements placed on the teachers to do a number of functions outside of actual teaching, etc.
“Do we have better results in education because of unions? I would so the answer is no.” – You base this on what? Unions don’t control the education, they protect the teachers. The school boards and government control the education. I would hypothesize that we would have better education were the government and school boards to allow the teachers to control the education of our youth.
“Private schools and charter schools serve their students better because they are not bound by union rules that allow incompetent teachers to stay in the classroom.” – Serve their students better? That is interesting. I would think the opposite. Charter and private school teachers, on the whole, are not as educated as public school teachers, nor are they required to have teaching certification, nor are they required to continue their education. However, as charter and private schools can pick and choose their students, they can ‘fudge’ the scores to make it appear they have done such a fantastic job. In a public school, you have to teach all the students, not just the ‘elite’ students.
“All over the country local and state governments are facing huge pension costs because of the contracts.” – Yes. However, one of the reasons why people go into the teaching profession at a lower pay than private industry is because of the pension and benefits. Take this away and the shortage of qualified teachers the country is currently facing will only increase.
“In Ohio on November 8, people will vote to sustain or repeal the state law on collective bargaining.” – Some people think the grass is always greener. Who knows what ramifications this will have on the public schools in Ohio.
“The unions have brought in big money from outside the state to try and repeal this law. If the law is repealed, there will be mass layoffs or escalating taxes on the citizens.” – Only time will tell what actually happens.
“Teachers or anyone else in the public domain should pay toward their pensions and healthcare.” – I don’t know about Ohio, but in Maryland, they do. Now, if you mean they should pay fully, then I would argue that they should be compensated significantly more.
“Why should the taxpayers shoulder the burden for something that they don’t have.” – Why should the taxpayers pay to have their children educated? The taxes go to pay for the education of the children.
“Our public employees should not be receiving benefits and salaries that are far superior to those who are footing the bill.” – Those in the private sector with similar education make a significant amount more than teachers.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Cathy do you realize that the failure rate of charter schools is extremely high? Look at how bad the charter school we had in harford county was!
@Cathy – Although I am a fiscal conservative, I do get a bit lost when I hear comments like yours. Plan and simple,the biggest problem with the current public education system is that decision making occurs far from the local community school and is usually by politicians or bureaucrats, who are overpaid and have little clue as to local needs.
I have to disagree with you that decisions are not made at the local level. Where I live we have a school board elected to represent the citizens. We have a school superintendent who submits a budget to the school board, and it is approved or disapproved. There is no county executive looking at this budget like Maryland. Many of the school boards are rubber stamps for the superintendents and do not represent the citizens as they are supposed to do. Over 70% of the funding comes from the local property owners, and whatever the board decides is what we pay in our school tax. It is creating major problems for the many of the citizens, both young and old to pay these taxes and see the teachers get salaries and benefits that are far better than most of the tax-paying citizens are getting.
Cathy,
I believe you have said before you live in PA. Your schools have some of the best pay and benifits for teachers. You have the cream of the crop in the teaching profession. You get 50-100 applicants for one job. That kind of education system costs. It is up to you as voters to hold BOE members accountable if you are not happy with them. Your system sure beats political games being played with funding that happens here.
@Cathy – Again, I disagree with your overall argument. Where do I start? The many mostly unfunded laws, rules, regulations, and mandates from the ever popular US Department of Education might be a start. All the poorly funded, laws, rules, regulations and mandates from the Maryland State Department of Education and our beloved career politicians trying to do good things with our tax dollars might shed some light on it. Of course, last but not least, we have a county system, as opposed to a district system, which again imposes its own set of central not local control. All together, here are just a few examples: No Child Left Behind, Race To The Top, Elementary and Secondary Education Act, MSA testing, HSA testing, Service Learning and all the layers of forms and documentation involved with Special Education. Oh by the way, there isn’t a “School Tax”. I wish there was one that was raised by voter approval at the district level. Of course, that would replace or reduce the “piggy back tax” /property tax funding stream for schools. Also, HCPS creates a budget without any dedicated funding authority. So it acts like a child asking for an allowance from mom or dad. It has no incentive to save money because the money belongs to someone else. In this case being thrifty by saving is not rewarded, but penalized with perhaps a smaller allowance next time. Therefore, the “use it or lose it” mentality comes in to play. Lastly, the teacher pay comment has left me confused. I checked the salary schedule and looked at Harford County data. According to the Harford County Economic Development Website the median income in Fallston is $101,543, Bladwin is $107,459, Monkton is $98,888, Bel Air is $79,580, Churchville is $80,771 and Havre de Grace is $62,960. The HCPS teacher salary scale looks to be about $41,000 to about $72,000. I fail to see the “far better than most of the tax-paying citizens are getting” comment backed up with facts. Are you from another county with a much lower median income, if so, why are you commenting like you do live here? Please supply the data you referenced and the source. As always, I call them like I see them no matter what side of the fence you are on.
@Decoydud
Great job comparing individual teacher salaries with median household income which typically have two incomes.
@Decoydud
Great job comparing individual teacher salaries with median household income which typically have two incomes.
Paule – Ha Ha! I hope you noticed that I found the “e” that you misplaced and gave it back to you. Perhaps, you have seen too many of those particular vowels in your time and felt the need to avoid it? You must have been so proud of yourself with actually writing this sentence, that you felt the need to post it twice. However, I do so appreciate the lack of profanity and name-calling. Nice job! However, they say that the third time is the charm. Please bring it and amuse me some more!
@DecotDudee
Maybe this time around you can respond to my point that you did a “great job comparing individual teacher salaries with median household income which typically have two incomes.”
BS METER(good choice for you) or PAUL or whatever other alias that you use – The fact that you are trying to skew the perception of this discussion by posting under different names certainly speaks volumes about you. However, a teacher making $55,000 a year with a spouse staying home to raise their children because daycare is too costly or too difficult to locate seems to make my point. I would also offer all of those single teachers living alone, but of course, we can’t count them. Perhaps, you can’t quite grasp that concept?
@DecoyDudeee
It is apparent you have no familiarity with both math and statistical analysis, but that’s okay since we will always have Paris.
You can only compare total median household income with comparables such as all teacher median household income within say Harford County.
BS BABBLE BOY – Like I said good choice on the name. It fits you perfectly. I tire of your game and will check back when you have increased your skill level. You had too many unforced errors. By then I am sure that you will be posting under 10 or more different names. Sweet dreams(:
@Decoydood
I’m sorry I taxed your brain too much with silly facts about statistics.
Mea culpa, mea culpa
CATHY: “…teachers get salaries and benefits that are far better than most of the tax-paying citizens are getting.” Your salary is a function of your education and skills. I thought you people supported a Darwinian economic system. Instead you are just envious of teachers. Not a pretty sight.
You have your facts all wrong! Proud to be a liberal put you in your place. Support your teachers or send your kids to a private school where the teachers are not certified and you are definitely paying your teachers with the outrageous tuition that the schools require. Attending a private school does not mean better schools but it makes parents feel that their kids are too good to attend public schools.
Good Luck!
Why would they insist on looking a gift horse in the mouth? Take your check and say thanks if it happens. What could there possibly be to negotiate.
Apparently, it is not as simple as it may seem. According to my understanding, any change to a employee agreement needs to be negotiated. That includes bonuses. Since no wording about bonuses is in the current agreement, the HCEA would need to change that with the approval of the board. It seems simple…but anything that seems simple usually isn’t.
HCEA is not a union. Teachers cannot strike in Maryland. Apparently, they cannot strike, “sick-out”, etc…the basic things real unions do when at a stalemate. With no “union” teeth, it is an association. Honestly, I like it that way. If teachers would strike, imagine the ripple effect for parents across the county!
Oh, and check out the Aegis from earlier in the week. The superintendent basically said the same thing to Mr. Craig…bonuses need to be negotiated into the current agreement.
Again, this is probably just a formality.
We are a union.
Craig is trying to have his cake and eat it to. He wants to play santa clause but not be subject to the MOE requirement. The cost of a step increase is about the same amount as this bonus money is. If he gives it to the school system to distribute it is school money and will have to continue to budget the same amount next year in. State law does not allow him to bypass MOE unless he handles the dispursement from the county budget.
As a teacher…. I completely agree. Something, anything…is better than nothing. I appreciate any bonus that comes my way. And believe me, I know how lucky I am to have this job, but I also do work very hard to keep it (not unlike anyone else who cares about what they do). I know what the perception of teachers is, and it only takes a few to ruin it for the rest of us.
Teachers do pay for their pension and health care Nevermind that part of the reason their salaries are pathetic is the fact that they are given such “great benefits”. Truth be told the cost for these has doubled in 2 years while salaries have gone down 2%. All of this for those charged with educating our youth and for professionals with a minimum of a masters degree. In the great words of Chad Johnson ” child please “.
“Teachers do pay for their pension and health care Nevermind that part of the reason their salaries are pathetic is the fact that they are given such “great benefits”.”
The benefits *are* great relative to private industry. Let’s not forget Harford County tax payers pay **90%** of the health insurance cost. That means HCPS employees pay a measly 10 cents on the dollar for health insurance. Good luck negotiating that in a non-government job.
Brady
Yes Brady but you pay a far lower salary. BTW my father in law works for Northrup Gruman and he pays zippy for his health insurance. He only pays to add my mother-in-law.
In life, benefits tend to be commensurate with education. Get your learn on; get a better job with better benefits.
Mu question is….what will they propose to do with this money?
More posturing from the big guns in charge……”Hey…you can’t tell us what to do with the bonus money!……(slams fist on table….grunts….confers with other union reps…..). The union has decided to give the money to the employees!….(puffs out chest…..smiles…..takes credit for “looking out for their own”)……in the words of Chad Johnson….”child, please”.
Brady private sector with a masters makes far more in average than any teacher… Get a clue
I was talking about benefits, not total compensation. Please re-read what I posted in the context of what I quoted.
Also, lighten up…it’s just a friggin discussion.
Teachers work less time than equivalent folks in the private sector. Teacher’s health and retirement benefits are well above the private sector and their pay is higher when you calculate it on a days worked adjusted basis.
“Teachers work less time than equivalent folks in the private sector. Teacher’s health and retirement benefits are well above the private sector and their pay is higher when you calculate it on a days worked adjusted basis.”
This is largely a myth. Harford County teachers are “paid” to work 190 calendar days per year. I guarantee you most classroom teachers put in at least 5 addtional days to prepare their rooms before and after the school year. The (equivalently educated white collar) private sector works an average of 239 calendar days per year (260 weekdays – 15 days paid vacation – 6 holidays). A Harford county teacher with 15 years experience (required to have BS degree plus at least 36 additional credits) currently earns $60,459 per year (accounting for the past 3 years pay freeze). This is $310 per day and equates to $74,090 per year for the average private sector employee with minimum of a 4 year BS degree. How many private sector employees with 15 years of experience, a BS degree, plus at least 36 additional college credits are making that low of annual salary?
Additionally, teachers may get 2+ months of summer vacation, but they must take their vacation during that time of year. Any idea how much more expensive it is to vacation during the summer than during the rest of the year?
Actually, 15 year teachers don’t make that they make 12 year pay right now.
CHRIS: It is the same with all government employees. The private sector beats them. Here is a quote from today’s paper that illustrates this: “Federal workers make more than a quarter less than private sector employees doing similar jobs, according to a recent study. Federal employees make 26.3 percent less than private sector workers on average, a recent study by the Bureau of Labor Statistics found, cited by the Washington Post. The figures were compiled for the Federal Salary Council, a group made up of union representatives, federal officials and other wage experts. One member of the council says the widening gap is largely a result of the federal employee pay freeze that President Obama’s administration announced last year.” Of course none of these folks can touch the vast wealth made by the top 1%.
@Proud To Be Liberal – “The salary report makes no mention of adjustment to account for the value of federal employee benefits or greater job stability relative to the private sector.”
I’ve been a teacher in the HCPS system for over 30 years. I have always loved my job. I take great pride in educating the children of Harford County. So many people feel we have such an easy job, all summer off and great benefits. Well, I don’t have any friends or family who work 3-5 extra hours a day, without being compensated for it. I get paid for working 7.5 hours a day but usually stay at school working for 10-12 hours. I get about 20 minutes for lunch and about 30-35 minutes of planning a day. And besides all that I spend an average of $2,000 each year on teaching supplies, materials and treats for my students, none of which is reimbursed. Both of my own children, in their thirties, make more than twice my salary. I’m not complaining… I have always loved my job, that’s why I continue doing it! Please do not think that teachers are highly paid, get summers off (I’ve always worked another job in the summer), and have the best benefits. I chose my career and have never regretted it. My reward has never been a great salary, but instead, the heart felt pride of having made a difference in the lives of over 800 children in Harford County!!
Paul, you should become a novelist because that is absolute fiction. What’s more, we union folk want everyone to have good benefits, not just teachers.
Are you insane teachers get two months off every summer and holidays off with great pay and benefits. And a job for life unlike the rest of us.
These ingrates should be thankful they have a job in this recessionary period with high unemployment and underemployment.
Yes, we shall beat them into submission. After all they are our free labor to treat like slaves.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
That is all!
Hey BS,
“Are you insane teachers get two months off every summer and holidays off with great pay and benefits. And a job for life unlike the rest of us.” – Please allow me to correct this for you. ‘Are you insane? Teachers get two months off every summer and holidays off; as well as receiving great pay and benefits. Also, unlike the rest of us, they have a job for life.’ There, now that the statement is corrected into something readable, I’ll reply. First, the compensation teachers receive is contracted for the 10 months they work. They, like most, get holidays off. The benefits and pay are negotiated, and many would not call the pay ‘great’. Finally, though I have not seen a psychiatrist, I believe I am sane, though some here might disagree with that.
“These ingrates” – Wow, way to make a strong argument by name calling.
“should be thankful they have a job” – Or thankful they made the correct choices and received their college education and decided to work in a field that is supposed to have steady employment with steady pay and benefits.
“in this recessionary period with high unemployment and underemployment.” – Again, teachers made the choice to work in a field where the work is stable. They accepted lesser compensation (which was supposed to increase at a steady rate on a yearly basis) with good benefits as opposed to higher pay in the free market.
Anyways, have a nice day.
BS: You do realize that they must pay bills for 12 months? What do you think that the bank gives them a holiday for the summer? Sour grapes here.
You are financially illiterate. Teachers can budget their yearly earnings.
BS: You should try using thought as a bases for your arguments. All you are showing is your intellectual bankruptcy.
I’ll try to use bases [sic] but you’ll have to educate me on what bases are?
BS,
You are in no position to be correcting grammar and typos. I am not either but you are just as bad in the run on sentence department!
No one actually gets two months off. Similarly, we work many unpaid hours.
Yes of course the teachers who spend two months in the summer in Ocean City works during their non-time off.
Don’t know any teacher who vacation for 2 months in OC. I do know many teacher who actually go to OC and get a job tending bar, life gaurding, training life gaurds, cleaning condos, etc!
My family hasn’t had a vacation in five years.
Really wteachers work less than private sector? Teachers get paid for 7.5 hours a day! No time for grading, planning, emailing parents, clubs, extra help for kids… 23 minutes for lunch, so give me a break. No wonder some kids behave the way they do when adults have so little respect for their teachers… Sad
Bs you my friend are a jackass
I am no friend of a Moron.
You are the moron
Calling all teachers ingrates shows how classless and clueless you are
Paul well stated and far more accurate… No teacher expects to get rich but instead what they are promised and a little respect…
Let’s not forget, teachers are also expected to act as the parent during the school year (except for discipline – all the kids are perfect) so these Ford expedition driving private sector “parents” can afford their big cars, big houses, and top-of-the-line smart phones. This is the only country in the world where educators are thought of as “ingrates”. Remember the days when parents and teachers were on the same side? Guess that went out with the creation of the pharmaceutical rep.
I was a proud UNION member, I left the classroom after five years of dedicated service to HCPS students. My heart broke when I did; I still miss my students every day. I left for the private sector and chances to advance professionally; I hold a MBA plus. I truly hope when the proud unions negotiate their monies to each person, they look at the amount of time that person has spent with HCPS. Is it fair for a first year custodial professional, to earn just as much as a 40 year classroom professional? No matter what you do for a school, you goal is to help students learn, from making sure the building is clean, to making sure the school wide attendance is taking correctly each day to being in the classroom. As we give what educational professionals rightfully own for once let us keep in mind the meaning of education. Education “ is any act or experience that has a formative effect on the mind, character, or physical ability of an individual,” therefore if you work for the HCPS, you teach every in some way. You are there for the love of the students. Let us do away with the titles and get back to educating.
Are we forgetting also that 2012 is an election year? All parties want to look their best. Mr. Craig is giving the money out over to payments to make himself look good! The Pres. Is pulling troops from Iraq again we are going into election year. That’s the true point behind the money. I will neutral in terms of my views.
Um, Craig isn’t eligible to run for another term and President Obama is required to see that troops leave because President Bush signed the U.S.-Ira
Um, Craig isn’t eligible to run for another term and President Obama is required to see that troops leave because President Bush signed the U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement with provided for all troops to be gone by December 31, 2011. Nothing to do with an election year at all.
Basis… Don’t be a jerk
Jay – I’ll let Proud to be Liberal continue his role as jerk.
I have sent Proud a custom made dunce cap with his name on it.
ALEX R and BS: It shows more about you that it does of me that of all the things I have posted on this site you two clowns could only find fault with a typo. ROTFL
Harford county teachers join us tomorrow at McKeldin Square to protest income inequality. We are the 99% and need to fight for more rights. We need to have teacher’s student loans forgiven or refunded and salaries raised.There are more of us than there are of them. Let’s overwhelm the 1% by showing solidarity.
Calling all communists, socialists and hippies. All of you owed something by the rest of us, those of you who don’t want to work and earn your living, those who screwed up your lives with poor decisions. Let us gather tomorrow and protest those that worked hard for their money, and try to force the government to take more from them and give it to us.
We are fighting for more rights though we cant tell you what rights we want.
Let others pay for our college education because you all owe it to us.
Let us put an end to responsibility. FREEDOM FROM RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!!
Solidarity = blockhead.
The 3 or 4 good ideas that some Occupy people have are totally lost in the rampant socialist message coming from the group. Most people you think are in the 99% see you on their wide screen high def TV and laugh at your silliness.
I will be with you in spirit. I am teaching tomorrow.
Im a teacher but there is no way in hell I agree with having student loans forgiven or any other socialist agenda I’m sorry
Occupy Baltimore or any other city is socialist bs
Folks, This is a union power play and nothing but. Doesn’t the union leadership look a little moronic trying to stop its members from getting a ‘bonus’ unless they can be in the limelight, while from the other side of their mouth always whining about how little the members get paid?
Give the money back to the taxpayers where it came from to begin with and tell the union to get lost. When will the union members wake up and get some leadership with a little common sense?
ALex the statement simply acknowledges MD law which keeps Craig from dictating how the BOE spends money. Perhaps the BOE will give teachers a step? If both sides are happy with that they can spend the money that way.
i would personally love to see a step, but from my understanding that’s very implausible. the issue is if they negotiated a step, they’d be committed to that increased pay in the following years as well. the bonus is a one time deal, with the ability to return to the same base salary.
i for one would be supremely happy to receive a bonus of any kind!
No power play whatsoever. Just asking for all parties to abide by the law.
Student loans forgiven? Get real! You took out a loan and promised that you would pay. Now you say “Hold on, I didn’t mean I personally would pay, I meant that some day I would get someone else to pay my loan because, after all, I am special. We ‘special’ people don’t keep our promises to our pay our bills.” Orwell was right, all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.” The more equal animals get their loans forgiven. PTBL, that would be chapter 10 in Orwell’s 1984.
Alex, how exactly would this be different from the county reneging on the salary step schedule? The county agreed (in writing, just like the teachers) to a very clearly defined salary schedule–they have refused to live up to that commitment for four years now.
Here’s an idea for a compromise (because, as I said in my last post, I think it’s a bit nuts to just forgive 100% of a student loan)–What if the feds passed an agreement that stipulated that, when a county (like Harford) couldn’t afford to honor their agreed upon salary schedule, teachers could deduct the amount of their lost step from their student loans? It would give the teachers and the county a bit of breathing room, while also allowing both sides to, at least partially, honor the financial commitments they’ve made.
And what happens to the teachers who went to schools that they could more easily afford and worked while going to school to avoid incurring this debt? Should they be punished for actually planning ahead?
You’re personalizing it and looking for a perfect solution. There isn’t one. For every “person who chose the right school and worked etc etc” I could point to a silver-spoon brat who got through college with no debt, no job and daddy paying all the bills. At the end of the day, we could get into plenty of arguments about who “deserves” what. Frankly, the teachers “deserve” the steps that were promised them. In an imperfect world, I was merely positing a (very rough) imperfect compromise.
For the record- I went to a state school, worked two (often three) jobs and graduated with honors (and some debt). I made the intelligent choices and planned ahead both in and out of college. By doing NOTHING (ie- continuing to demonize teachers and freeze the step schedule while counties and states surrounding Harford honor their obligations), you run a risk. People who are hard workers, careful planners and are aware of financial practicalities will do exactly what I did. They will leave Harford County.
Good thing you left and you can take some to ungrateful teachers here with you. Haford County needs teachers committed to their job and what it brings in tody’s economy, not to what it could bring to them in a perfect booming economy. HCG was not a party to your faux negotiations with the BOE and the Teachers Association, so you can gripe about it and demand it from the BOE but don’t hold the rest of county govt and their employees for your selfish demand that you be paid above anyone else in county govt. I wish you would just leave completely and just go complain to whatever county has you for a teacher now.
Very interesting insight, Roman. So now I’ve learned that you only support the state when it comes to reneging on agreed upon financial payments (the little guy can go kick sand), AND, to top it off, you dislike free-market capitalism! Are you a closet liberal? Criticizing my dedication for taking my skills to a state that is willing to compensate me at the market value (HCPS is well below market value–check the numbers) is the height of hypocrisy.
I Left,
Here are some more ideas. How about when I can’t afford to pay my bills because I didn’t get the raise I was expecting I get to reduce my gas and electric bill? Or my credit card bill? Or my mortgage payment? And then the feds could make up the difference just as you suggest. But the feds don’t have any money except what they get from the taxpayers plus what they just print for the heck of it because they are spending more than the taxpayers are paying. It is actually the taxpayers that would be making up the difference.
Here is another idea. How about when people take out a loan and promise to pay it back they just PAY IT BACK! Sorry to shout but you know I get more than a little weary of everyone looking for a break because they think they are special and deserve a break and want to dream up some excuse why they should get it.
I will say it again, if the union doesn’t want its members to get the bonus why heck let’s just give it to someone else. Like the taxpayers where they got it to begin with.
And don’t confuse this with any legal issue. If the county government wants the wokers to get the bonus and the union wants the workers to get the bonus they sit down for literally 5 minutes and sign a one time 3 sentence amendment to the CBA that says everyone agrees to a one time exception that each worker gets $1250 as a bonus. Let’s drop the smoke and mirrors of legal precedence. Its just a union canard that the uninformed might think is real.
Alex, I don’t think we actually disagree on this. I think we’re just coming at the same point from two different avenues. I completely agree that my proposed solution is imperfect, but it’s better than NO solution at all. Harford County is losing teachers because of this (I personally know of at least a dozen, just in the last year).
Frankly, the best solution is just to honor the step system. To be clear, I do NOT think that requires more money from the tax payers. The school system budget is woefully mismanaged, and there are MILLIONS of wasted dollars every year (lots of 6-figure salaries in redundant positions for one). Just look at the website right now. They are advertising for a 100k position titled “Coordinator of Accelerated Learning Programs.” Sounds great, right? Why can’t the County Content supervisors do that? They actually KNOW their subjects and how to implement accelerated learning programs for those subjects. For that matter, why can’t school-based staff handle that? Form a committee of teachers in each school, have the dept. chairs handle it, assign that as a primary responsibility of one of the (absurdly numerous) assistant principals? No, HCPS wants to hire someone brand new at 100k per year.
If someone was brought in to eliminate the administrative redundancy in HCPS, the county would be able to fund the salary schedule AND return some money to the tax payers.
As for your last comment, I’m pretty sure “sitting down and adding a 3 sentence note” is exactly what they mean by “negotiating.” Cerveny has a reputation for not rocking the boat. I can’t see him making a grandstanding play over this, but I CAN see him making sure all the formalities are followed to protect against future issues (like another unilateral contract change).
Unions are supporting the Occupy Wall Street movement and teachers, government employees and workers in Harford County should go to Ocuupy Baltimore today!
We are the 99% and we need to take the country back. We need to reward the 99% and spread the obscene wealth of the 1% through progressive taxation.
Where I come from, your “progressive taxation” is called theft. Try earning what you get.
Occupy America Democrat,
Well if you want my wealth I guess you can come and get it. BTW, when you do come be prepared to take along about 130 employees that will no longer have a fairly good paying job, with benefits, that you will now be accountable for supporting. Plus their families.
Wait, I just checked with them, and they said please stay away because they like it just fine where they are you scare them to death.
The 1% has benefited from the people’s infrastructure of roads, bridges, airports, ports, etc… The 1% must pay their fair share so we can level the playing field.
Is it fair that underpaid teachers are burdened by excessive student loan debt, I think not!
The liberals, progressives, President Obama and the majority of Democrats are supporting the Occupy Wall Street movement.
Come and Occupy Baltimore
The “1%” already pay 30% of the taxes. How much more is fair?
The person who took the loan is only a teacher now because someone was willing to loan them the money. They agreed to pay back this money so yes it is fair.
About 10%. The top 1% controls about 40% of the wealth, while contributing 30% of the tax revenue. The bottom 99% correspondingly controls 60% of the wealth, while paying 70% of the tax revenue. Those numbers are even more skewed if you look at the top 5% versus the bottom 95%.
As for student loans, while I don’t quite think they should be forgiven (that ignores the larger problem) it’s a bit ballsy to say that they shouldn’t be forgiven because teachers “agreed to pay back this money so yes it is fair.” Teachers also agreed to a contract that stipulated annual step increases. This salary schedule was negotiated, advertised and used in recruiting. It’s funny how the right claims that lack of money is a sound justification for reneging on THEIR commitments, while at the same time bristling at the idea that others would dare use the same argument to achieve the same ends.
IMO, the key to lowering the staggering costs of higher education rest in reforming the economic structure of higher education. Public schools shouldn’t seek to make a profit of any kind. They should get out of the business of sports and other extraneous nonsense, and create a business plan that basically allows them to break even at the end of each economic year. Get rid of all the assistant deans and vice-provosts making 6 and 7 figure salaries. If you want to get a degree, you would be able to go to a public school and do so without sacrificing your economic future. If you want to attend a sports team or the other nonsense, there are always private schools who can charge what they please.
And the bottom half that pays nothing?
Please explain WHat you mean.
I will interpret that to mean you somehow believe that lie that half the people do not pay any taxes? Shall some people whom I had this discussion with correct you or do I?
Income taxes
From the irs, how is it a lie
This is a lie because you said “And the bottom half that pays nothing?” You did not specify income taxes the actual percentage of people who pay nofederal taxes is only 12 and they pay local taxes. The 47% from that study in 2009 was an anomily and up from the 38% the number is usually around because of the making work count tax credit. Next you also mean to imply they are all lazy out of work people. Actually over half are out of work because they fit in to 2 categories
1) They are senior citizens and retired. You would agree their tax free social security was earned don’t you? Should they return to work?
2) minor children making less then $5,000 and thus exempt from withholding!
Next we have people who participated in the EITC which while it operates through the tax system is an offset.
We also have a lot of people who fit the DOnald Trump and Frank McCourt Jr. Category (did you know they wher ein the 47% that year?
The actual number of lazy non-workers not paying federal income taxes is actually like 8% (this from the same study) and as was pointed out they actually pay federal taxes in some form or another!
So please continue your false spreading of information!
I LEFT,
Well, we do agree on a few things. Especially on public colleges and universities. One of the several reasons a bachelor’s degree costs what it does is that student loans have enabled the ridiculous spending spree and bloated budgets. Another is that any school that has a sports program cannot just have the sports that can make money. That is thanks to a bunch of state and federal regs with unnintended consequences. But I’m not sure about ‘unintended’.
I do agree that any, repeat ANY, organization that signs a labor contract must follow it. The problem I see is that in the public setting it is not truly ‘arms length’ like it is in most private settings. Management is promising to pay with my money so they can just demand that I pay more. In a private company, the company has to be more careful because they can’t demand that their customers pay more.
But then I favor no unions for public employees. A subject for another day.
And let’s not limit our criticism of bloated budgets to colleges and universities. HCPS probably has enough money in the budget to honor the labor contract if they were required to honor it. They would just have to stop a bunch of nonsense. Wouldn’t that be great?
I go back to my original criticism of HCPS voiced months ago. It is run by a bunch of people who think they can run an organization of that size because they received some education related degrees in the past, but their education has had absolutlely nothing to do with successfully running a large service organization and making it break even while delivering a high quality ‘product’. Totally inept. Is that their fault? No. It is the fault of the people who hired them.
ALEX R: “No. It is the fault of the people who hired them.” Of course now that we have an elected school board, all will be perfect.
Hey Proud,
The school board is currently made up of, not including the student rep, Dr. Wheeler – appointed, Mr. Grambo – elected, Ms. Krchnavy – appointed, Ms. Reynolds – appointed, Mr. Hau – appointed, Mr. Thornton – appointed, Mr. Browning – appointed, Mr. Frisch – elected, andMs. Beverly – elected. That equals 6 appointed and 3 elected.
To be honest, though, I don’t think it would matter if the board were to be all elected or all appointed. The teacher’s contract should be honored.
Anyways, have a nice day.
PAUL Mc: You are, of course, correct and that was my point.
Hey Proud,
Not trying to start a fight with you on this subject. I think I am just a bit confused as to what you meant by that. Sometimes interpreting things in a text environment isn’t as easy as it should be.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul Mc: I meant what I said, I agree with you. Is that so startling?
Hey Proud,
Cool.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Well said “I Left”. While I agree too few people hold far too much wealth I would add that unfortunately because of the lack of morality in this nation they all too often feel they deserve to be multi-million and billionaires. The concept of a company that cares about its workers is pretty much a thing of the past with the gradual departure of that previous generation of company presidents and the management they hired and inspired. Now is the time of six and seven figure salaries with five and six figure bonuses for managers and executives that, while Ivy League schooled, can’t manage to find their behinds with both hands. Where are these people to look for morality when their biggest dilemma is deciding between domestic and imported caviar while children go to bed hungry? Washington? Wall Street? Hollywood? They feel no shame, they’ll certainly never apologize for being rich and as long as they have that money Washington will belong to them.
Funny that you only attack wall streeters here and not the people that truely earned their money the hard way, actors and atheletes. No one attacking ARod for the money he makes on the left.
How about instead of being jealous, you come with an idea that is going to make millions, then you can give it all away.
Obama? Surely you jest. He is part of the 1% that you are railing against. Oh, I get it, Occupy has given him a special exception because he says some stuff that sounds good to them. Perhaps he will show up for a carefully orchestrated campaign stop.
Oh, and by the way, he and Michelle paid their student loans themselves. Go thou and do likewise.
If the union doesn’t just take the money, pass it on to the teachers and shut the hell up, I think it’s time for Craig to say, “Oops, I made a mistake. There’s no money left for the teachers. If you have any questions, call Randy Cerveny at 410-…”
What part of “it’s part of the negotiated agreement” is baffling to you? The union JUST finished an extended legal battle over that part of the contract (when they tried to unilaterally change the benefits structure). If the union ignored that part of the contract now, just because the bonus is in their favor, they set themselves up for a fall later on. The next time Tomback or the board wanted to unilaterally change the contract, the union would have no ground to stand on, having set the precedent that it’s okay by them to handle financial matters without negotiation. This isn’t about taking credit for the bonus, stopping the bonus or grandstanding at all. It’s about covering their collective asses for a potential disaster down the line. I’m fairly certain that they want to “negotiate” that the bonus happen exactly as Craig intended. They just have to make sure that they go through the formality of that negotiation in order to preserve that aspect of their contract.
Again, I’ll say it. In this situation, Craig has the power and it seems to be killing the union to not be in control.
If the union insists on no bonuses without negotiating, Craig should send a polite message to the union stating that he agrees that nothing should be done without negotiating, so he is withdrawing the offensive offer and he apologizes for insulting them. It is unreasonable for the union to be upset with that decision if they are insistant on their members not receiving a bonus under Craig’s terms (which are “Here, have some money”).
So breaking the law is OK if he is giving money away? That is what this is a matter of.
Well, seems like there are a lot of asses to cover.
Phil, the union will not touch the money. I left is very correct, it is about the precedent being set. The bigger one and more concerning is that if the board agrees to it they set the precedent that Craig can give them money with strings attatched. THis is not how it is set out to be. The county decides how much money the BOE gets. The BOE decides how to spend it. MD educational funding law is clear on this!!!!
Re: public schools and unions …. I think the problem is at the elected official level at the State and Federal government, much more than it is even unions, teachers, students, or parents.
There are way too many decisions made for political advantage and not with the interests of children in public schools in mind, made at the State (State Legislature / Governor) and Federal levels and they are hurting our kids and burdening our teachers in public schools, and are especially harmful to the disadvantaged children whose parents don’t know or cannot compensate for deficiencies in public schools.
Voters PLEASE pay closer attention to what is really going on behind the curtain because electing people they say they are for education is not working. It is amazing what can be done to hundreds of thousands of children in public schools in order to benefit the political aspirations of a few. One retired principal called it “ruthless”. Why do we want to throw away the educational potential of so many children?
Just this past spring …the Maryland Legislature made all Maryland teachers put an additional 2 percent of their salary into their pension fund …(I think that means it is now at 9 percent versus the previous 7 percent) an across the board 2 percent pay cut to their take home pay …but the money will go to the Maryland General fund for the first 3 years to balance the Maryland budget and NOT to the teacher pension fund. The Governor balanced the budget on the backs of teachers. The gasp in the county PTA meeting was audible when we first learned about this.
The “Beg a Thon” that all of Maryland’s Board of Ed members attend in January to ask for money for their school systems … a funding carrots and sticks approach that can be used by ruthless people to burden our county people with polticized pressures that really put them in a bind and make it harder for them to do what they really want to do for the children in public schools.
The whole idea that principals must work for 2 -2.5 years with every i dotted and every t crossed to remove a person from the classroom who is not teaching … not the teachers somebody just doesn’t like …but the really way out there … half of a class of honors math students fails Algebra I the next year after having this math teacher… or the notorious 20 years long stories about a math teacher in the high school who asked a kid what she got in her other subjects and gave her that grade after the student failed all of her Algebra I tests. or the spanish teacher who used examples in the classroom like …student a (a girl) and I were taking a bath last night.
The worst thing I have come across is the Maryland State legislature’s willingness to undercut the Algebra I curriculum for every student in public school in the whole state, in 2007 by taking out 6 weeks of curriculum and replacing it with Data Analysis by actually passing a law to that effect …that created a gap between Algebra I and Algebra II that teachers are still trying to compensate for. Parents of GT students had to find out the hard way when so many GT kids started to stuggle in Algebra II and Pre Calc. The damage done in a high tech state to its up and coming work force… in order to make the numbers look good in June 2009 when it was required that students pass the Algebra I HSA in order to obtain a Maryland High School Diploma…. it is just so short sighted.
The herculean efforts of many people within the public school system try to compensate for these politicized decisions …but we as Voters have the most power…. we need to be informed …we need to be serious and I believe that we need to save our community public schools. They are a tremendous asset and with a little attention can be a great pillar of democracy and community in my opinion.
@ PTAMOM – I fully agree with several of your points and join in your frustration. I hope the PTA and others will join in the effort to help return the bulk of the educational decision-making process back to the local community where it belongs.
Capitalism and Unions: two words that seem to make a few of my friends on the left and the right even less rational than normal. As a fiscal conservative who supports hard working, taxpaying, legal citizens, I would suggest you all might consider doing likewise and stop attacking productive citizens like entrepreneurs, small business owners and teachers. Otherwise, your misguided rhetoric says volumes about your politics. Of course, I fully support citizens’ rights under our Constitution no matter how foolishly some may decide to exercise them. Again, I call them like I see them and could care less which political brand I offend.
Proud and Paul,
Well then we all 3 agree that the teacher contract should be honored. Wow! That’s a first.
And, Proud, no it will not be perfect but at least the local voters would have the ultimate control over the local school board if the board was elected. For better or for worse. As Paul Mc pointed out, the board currently is only 1/3 elected.
Oh, and by the way, Proud, my hat is off to you if you adopted. You are to be commended. I pray that others would follow your example. There are about 300 kids in foster care in Harford County and the odds against kids in foster care having a life that turns out well are not good.
Let me see, a contract between two parties that another party (HCG) actually has to fund and pay? This doesn’t seem to me like an enforceable contract. Consideration (monetary exchange), meeting of the minds and benefit (value) be it implicit or explicit are the some of the elements of a valid contract between willing parties. I don’t see where meeting of the minds is being considered as HCG does not sit at the negotiating table in discussing such contract. Null and void that’s what you would get in a court of law if taken to the extreme to force HCG to honor this agreement to which HCG is not a party.
except the BOE is part of HCG! The BOE is the agent of HCG responsible for negotiating on their behalf.
BOE is a separate state entity and as such the county executive has no authority over it so even when the CE wants to give teachers a bonus, the BOE can’t just accept it as given. CDEV, you can’t have it both ways such as being an indepdendent agency and also being part of HCG. The CE can’t “line item” any funds for any purpose, only fund the requested amount from the BOE if the funds are there and at minimum keep to the maintenance of effort within the law. If you want to make the argument that the BOE should have its own taxing authority to fund the school system, that would be a point in which I would agree.
Roman I would agree that I would much rather have the PA model with taxing authority. That said to the extent that they control the purse strings the BOE is the authority responsibile for negotiating on the counties behalf.
The point of the article was about the union president’s challenge to CE Craig’s plan for the surplus money. not about if teachers are over or under compensated.
I imagine that Mr. Cerveny’s goal is to negotiate the alotted amounted higher for union teachers by decreasing the bonus given to non-union teachers. Keep in mind, however, that the bonus proposed by CE Craig is for virtually all HC employees, not just teachers. Librarians, court clerks, etc.
I support CE Craig’s plan to hand out an across the board bonus, and if Mr. Cerveny doesn’t like it he can kick rocks and blow bubbles.
Jeffery Beck
There are no non-union teachers. All teachers are required to join HCEA and be represented by them at the bargining table. The only choice is joining the NEA/MSEA and getting the liability insurance!
I think you are mistaken on the required union membership.
No teacher is required to join HCEA.
This is absolutely untrue. Teachers who join HCEA are automatically members of NEA/MSTA, but there is (nor has there ever been) a requirement to join HCEA. While it is true that HCEA is the bargaining unit for all teachers, union or non-union, non-members do not benefit from HCEA protection during professional disputes nor do they have access to HCEA-sponsored vision insurance. In fact, until the vision insurance was an offered benefit I was not an HCEA member.
let me clarify a teacher must pay a representation fee to HCEA!!!
I think that no matter what Tomback will make it a point to keep the money. And we’ll basically shrug our shoulders and take it. I’m a AFCSME and we never heard a peep out of them about anything that sneaky Tomback did.
I am going into my 12th year as a employee, and I have never seen the lack of respect and lack of backing as I have in Tomback. I’m at the point now where the system I work for is kicking me around like I’m nothing and I’m tired of it. I hope that we do get this bonus and what Craig has offered. I know this is not a solution to not having a raise in three years, but it’s something. I’d rather take something then nothing at all.
A bonus is better than nothing, so teachers should just take it and be happy. The problem seems to be though that the surplus from the county would make it possible to give all employees the raise that they should have gotten in the first place. These savings have come from the back of county workers and school system employees. this surplus is possible even with a property tax rate cut the last 2 years, so one can’t really say that the taxpayer is paying more to give these employees a raise that has been earned. These funds should be given to the employees as a step raise, not as a bonus. In the private market place, greater efficiencies are rewarded in the form or raises, the county should employ a similar payment system since the county is doing the same with less and workers are doing more with less support.
We would take it and be happy if we were legally allowed to do so. However, any change in compensation (and these bonuses do count as such) is subject to collective bargaining. If HCEA were to accept this bonus without going through proper channels, it would set a precedent that would allow HCG/BOE to make unilateral changes to the compensation package teachers receive without negotiation. I don’t think that is what Mr. Craig intended to have happen (the law of unintended consequences), but it is still the way of the world so to speak.
Concerned Teacher,
You say the bonuses do not counts as compensation. They absolutely do count. If you get the bonus (and from the inane stuff I hear from your union I wouldn’t spend it before I saw the check clear) check your W-2. The amount will be included in your total compensation.
It is a great amusement to me that the County wants to give money to the teachers and other employees and 2 weeks after the Dagger article was written the issue is still being debated. If a simple thing like this takes that long then I suppose that explains a lot of the inefficiency everywhere in government. If you guys don’t want it then I’m one of the taxpayers that paid for it so just give it back to me. Yes, I know that you are also one of the taxpayers that paid for it assuming you live in Harford County.
Before you blow your stack regarding these statements please know that I am happy for you to get the bonus. But, if you guys let your union stop you from getting the money then that is on you. The teachers certified the union and then elected the officers so what they do reflects directly on you and all teachers.
Go back and re-read my post. I very specifically said “and these bonuses do count as [compensation]”. The whole entire point of my argument was that they count as compensation, along with the unintended consequences of accepting the bonuses without negotiating for them first.
The bigger, unstated issue for the teachers is whether or not Dr. Tomback will be a hindrance in this negotiation process. Many among the ranks already do not trust him and his motives for most anything he does.
Not sure but I do not think HCEA can be decertified!
Where is the discussion regarding the incompetent liars who run HCPS that somehow “misplaced” 11 million dollars that they failed to bring the negotiating table with the HCEA? Fortunately the labor board is requiring HCPS to return to the table and bargain with the HCEA with these newly “found” funds. Where is the press on this issue? We’ve got a county government with 30+ million dollars in hand and a school system with 11 million dollars in hand and county employees that have not been given a step increase in 3 years. It would be unbelievable, except for the fact that we live in Harford County. I can’t wait to hear many of comment that county employees shouldn’t be given any of this excess money and that it should all be returned to the taxpayers. It’s funny to hear comments from people who 6 or 7 years ago were telling teachers that they are stupid for working for so little and now those same people are complaining that teachers shouldn’t be given a bonus or a step increase when the government has over 40 million dollars of excess revenue. Hazzard County is awesome.
The Labor Board just found in favor of HCEA, in that, the LB felt that the Board of Education did in fact have the funds available to honor the salary step system for this school year. This being the case, HCEA and the BoE must now renegotiate this year’s salaries. Now, with regard to the bonus proposed by David Craig, we as teachers, should be patient with the results of this. We do not want to immediately accept this bonus because in re-negotiations it could be added to the $11 million owed to the school system employees. If this is the case, then the “bonus” money given to the school system would then fall under the Maintenance of Effort law and would no longer be considered a bonus because it would have to be provided to the school system annually.
So teachers and school system employees, I know you would love to have this money right now, but please be patient! It will pay off in the end.